An interview with Dmitry Budorin | Hacken
We sat down with the CEO of HACKEN during the Web Summit 2022 to discuss the beauty of crypto hacks, the relationship between crypto and the state, the possibility of having an orgasm from PoS, and much more.
GNCrypto:
– How would you describe HACKEN to someone who is unfamiliar with your company?
Dmitry Budorin:
– A vertically integrated Web3 security company. It comprises products, consulting and auditing services, and even assistance to other Web3 cybersecurity startups. To launch and raise funds. That sort of thing.
GNCrypto:
– What interested you at the start of your crypto journey? Why did you choose this path?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Free money and the aspect of permissionless, to be precise – no one can stop you from sending money to anyone you want. It's a new level of the financial system. And I wanted to dive headfirst into the whole thing. I wanted to get involved, shall we say, in the financial revolution.
GNCrypto:
– What's your definition of "economic freedom"?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Let's compare economic freedom to universal basic income (as in when you get something for nothing). I guess there will be large DAOs built to create "public goods", which will allow earning universal basic income for being active in those DAOs. People will get paid for doing what they love, and that will be enough for them. But if they want to take on more opportunities, they will take more responsibility. There will be a lot of development opportunities.
GNCrypto:
– Today, many crypto companies are racing to cooperate with states. Doesn't this contradict the crypto ideology itself?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Well, we should distinguish between crypto in the crypto exchange format and crypto in the full-fledged Web3 format. Crypto exchanges are, in fact, a shell around gambling. Gambling in an attractive crypto wrap, since most exchanges are centralized platforms that hold your "keys". You don't own the "keys", the exchanges do. Exchanges are technically neo-banks. That's why it's quite a natural thing. Exchanges are the engine of mass adoption, but unfortunately, not so many people move from crypto exchanges to authentic Web3. But some do. Authentic Web3 is about your keys, your security, and your interaction with various projects through web wallets – you don't pass your keys to anyone.
GNCrypto:
– What do you think Web3 and blockchain will bring to the world in the future?
Dmitry Budorin:
– I think there will be a global retreat from correspondent accounts and the present structure of the financial system. I think that this technology will drop eventually, and blockchain will take over as the backbone of the financial system. But I have no clear idea what that will be. And I certainly want cities to have their own coins, city coins. They should be absolutely freely convertible. And it should be a project that deals with tax administration and internal payments. I mean, that's quite a realistic story and I'd love to see it come to life.
GNCrypto:
– What do you think about the recent switch from Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake?
Dmitry Budorin:
– That's fantastic. I had an orgasm!
GNCrypto:
– What would you choose to give up forever: sex or crypto?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Nah, I'd shoot myself and that would be it!
GNCrypto:
– But what if you had to choose?
Dmitry Budorin:
– No, no, I'd shoot myself! Haha, sorry, my life is not conceivable without either!
GNCrypto:
– What rules do you follow both in work and in life?
Dmitry Budorin:
– If it happens to be a win-lose business combination, where I win, but my partner loses, in almost all cases, I will revise the situation to make it a win-win case. I mean, I make it worse for myself, but it's very important to me that the people I'm working with feel that they are treated fairly. That's the main thing.
GNCrypto:
– Do you often see the same attitude from partners or other companies?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Those with whom I have worked repeatedly, yes! If I see that someone is trying to pull the blanket, I simply stop working with them. I didn't come to that understanding in one day. I had a lot of situations where I lost while others were in a winning position. I have come to realize that I'm not okay with this and I never want the people I work with to feel the same way.
GNCrypto:
– Crypto hacks are expected to hit an all-time high this year.
Dmitry Budorin:
– I think they already did! With Terra and Luna counted as a hack, I guess this record can hardly ever be beaten.
GNCrypto:
– What do you think will happen next and how to protect yourself?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Hacking is getting harder and harder, even though there are a lot of hacks. The main hacks don’t root from the Web2 security gaps. People don't even know how to store and manage their private keys from huge smart contracts. We'll see more pressure put on projects within the industry to do certain certifications: the way they unpack the keys, the way they manage them. In fact, we already have all of that. For example, Crypto Consortium. They already offer the best practices to start a new project. But a lot of people keep reinventing the wheel, like the options for distributing keys among the founders, and so on. And that's why there are so many hacks lately. And in terms of the smart contract, there will be two trends, or rather they already exist: the first is monitoring and the alert incidence response. This tool is being developed right now and is gaining popularity. We are also working on that feature. SAS products that monitor smart contracts, even within a mempool, that is, before they are added to the blockchain. And in case of any suspicious activity, they can either alert a person to confirm an action or automatically pause it. Soon everyone will have it. It's already preventing major hacks. The second trend is the insurance market, or rather coverage protocols. Some fundamental things are finally starting to change. Coverage protocols were used to compete with staking and farming as they were chasing liquidity, but they were not able to offer interest rates as good as farming and staking. But we have some ideas that will change everything. I believe that in the future, people will be more likely to stake into coverage protocols, which will actually insure them against big hacks.
GNCrypto:
– Do you see beauty in hacking attacks?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Sure.
GNCrypto:
– How do you perceive them?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Every time it's something new. It's like an invention. It's like going into a house with a lot of locks and no doors, penetrating through the gaps, and breaking in. I mean, you have to squeeze in, it's hard. Sometimes, unless it's a silly mistake made by the founders or undisclosed information, it's like a work of art.
GNCrypto:
– Do you have a favorite work of art of this kind?
Dmitry Budorin:
– A recent Mango Markets hack. Awesome story! A 110 million hack. Phenomenal story of how he hacked (technically), and what he actually did with the money. He made a vote in the DAO, like "Would you want me to return some money? But I’ll keep a substantial portion of it, and this money would be immune from any prosecution." And he voted with the stolen money. And people were like, "Okay, fine, he's got the majority". And that's it, he embezzled 40 million, or whatever. It was a great idea, and it was fair: he returned the money, and retained the bounty. Actually, that's the current trend. Hackers really have a hard time encashing large sums of money, so they are increasingly returning the money, but retaining some kind of bonus, whatever they decide. And this trend can't help but please.
GNCrypto:
– What frustrates or annoys you most about the industry?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Fakes, scams. When people with no insight, those who hit the peaks and skip the valleys start talking about things they do not understand. But in general, everything is easy and fun. I love everything.
GNCrypto:
– What was the wisest thing you discovered or heard, read, or saw? Do you have any motto or idea that guides you through any challenge, and keeps you motivated?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Idiocy and courage! It sounds absurd, but so close to our Ukrainian motto, "Be brave”. I mean, be brave to take a leap in the dark, to be curious, inquiring, and delve into the unknown. Challenge it with pleasure, with little idiocy (in the finest sense of this word).
GNCrypto:
– If you could travel through time, on your own terms, would you rather go back, or skip ahead? Would you like to change anything in the past or witness the future?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Oh, that's a philosophical question in some sense. I would certainly like to go back to 2013, 2010, 2011.
GNCrypto:
– Why?
Dmitry Budorin:
– To prevent the events that followed our "Maidan". I mean to prevent the Crimea, the Donbas (annexation - Ed.)…
GNCrypto:
– If you could make rules that everyone in the world had to follow, what would they be? One rule for the global society, and one rule for the industry community.
Dmitry Budorin:
– What rules can there possibly be for the global society?
GNCrypto:
– Ban on weapons, for example.
Dmitry Budorin:
– Well, I would like to abolish nuclear weapons. It proved to be no longer an element of deterrence, but an element of pressure. Though no, nuclear weapons are only a component. Borders shall be fixed across the world. The entire world must arise against any trespass. That's the iron prescription: established borders shall never be changed. As for the industry, I'd add…. Well, that's about revealing business secrets… And it's better not to tell your ideas until they're deployed. And of course, I'd like to know about Satoshi, who the hell is he? Truth is, our industry is wonderful. There is nothing to be changed or regulated. I’d let things develop naturally. We're at the peak of our powers, what could be better? That's actually the reason I'd love to know the story of Satoshi's life. How one man could change so many things?
GNCrypto:
– What are the most fascinating people you've met?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Within the crypto industry?
GNCrypto:
– Yes. Who impressed you and why?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Well, that's a complicated question! We have Vitalik, he's like an alien from another world. There have never been, nor will there ever be the likes of Vitalik (laughs). In a technical sense, I was impressed by MetaMask founder Kumavis. He is both a cool guy and a source of information. He's both fun and easy goiing. He's really a very cool guy. He quit his position as the MetaMask CEO because he wanted to be a CISO. He really impressed me.
GNCrypto:
– Okay, the final questions: What question would you like to be asked in an interview? Is there a topic or information you'd like to share?
Dmitry Budorin:
– Yes, we are launching an initiative that is a public good. We have a project called Trust Army. We've been in crypto for a long time, and we're the ones who really want to witness fewer scams and frauds in crypto. We see quite a lot of gaps that require research. This research is very manual, and only a few people do it. Because "What's in it for them?". And we have finally decided that we will do it. We have developed a research training course. These researches have about 4 streams, and the results of these researches will be available not only to us, but also at CoinMarketCap, and at Nansen. People will see the results of their work, so I want people to pay attention, read about the Trust Army, and get involved. People will be able to make money by doing useful things in the crypto world. It's not a bounty program (where you pay researchers for “likes” and “retweets”). It's about finding a wallet, collecting tokenomics, and checking tokenomics with vesting periods, which will be on-chain. There will be a lot of different things to collect. That's our global agenda. We want to make the crypto world a little more transparent and accountable.
